Community for Intentional Living
Sanctorum Communio
A few of us talked Tuesday night about getting together either bi-weekly, or monthly and putting out theological rants into practice. This is an invite and a follow-up to all you fella's. This would be a place of confession, devotion, worhsip, service, etc. What are your thoughts? How often would you like to meet? WHen would you like to meet?
A few of us talked Tuesday night about getting together either bi-weekly, or monthly and putting out theological rants into practice. This is an invite and a follow-up to all you fella's. This would be a place of confession, devotion, worhsip, service, etc. What are your thoughts? How often would you like to meet? WHen would you like to meet?
posted by jamis4 at 9:46 AM
20 Comments:
Can I just say that Tuesday night was probably the highlight of my week? I SO enjoyed talking with you intelligent men. And I, too, think that it's about time we put our theological rants into practice.
Personally, I feel that bi-weekly is a better deal. And I like the idea of finding a manly environment. Where ever that may be...
"...manly environment..."
aka, in my PANTS!
ps- LOL
Wow.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
and something else completely off-topic:
A Muslim response to the Pope's offence and apology stemming from his lecture at the University of Regensberg, Germany on Sept. 12 of this year.
The letter is found here.
Just click the link "click here to view..." at the bottom of the page.
Also, whoever reads this first, please make a new post of it on the front page.
I like the enthusiasm that this group has to explore these things, and I agree Mr. Snyder, that tuesday was expecially beneficial for me. I must play the devil's advocate though in regards to this practical matter. In my experience, when groups try and systematically try to get something like this together for the purpose of weeding out vices and such, more often than not it fails miserably. I feel that we should as a group of men be mindful of the things that we just jump into and share with each other. I dont say this to be a fuddy-duddy or anything, but it is something to consider. EJ talked to Pastor Gannon about it a little...if you would bro, post his caveats. Now, with that said, I believe that we already have a good representation of the church body beginning within our group of men. I feel extremely comfortable with all of you, and wouldnt hesitate to confide in at least one of you in an instant, I just believe that we might be wary of the possibility of that community feeling forced by going at it the way proposed. Let me know your thoughts. Be ready, I think Imma hit you all up on the topic of sanctification here shortly.
-Mike-
Hey bros, as Mike has said, I asked my pastor what he thought about open confession in the church, and I will just post his response as is. I hope to talk to him some more about this issue. Here's what Jeff said:
We can talk about your questions in greater detail in person but as a general rule, I think that there is too much vulnerability in how it is being practiced.
The gift of confession is so fragile and has great potential for misuse and abuse.
I think the fewer who know one's sins, the better, thus the purpose of a confessor priest.
The breaking of confidentiality is so serious for a priest that it leads to automatic defrocking.
How are you protecting each other from the breaking of confidences?
John Ortberg always say that the only way you can know that one is safe with whom to share our deepest secrets is that the more the person knows about us - warts and all - the more they love us.
From the movie by Tom Cruise....most people cannot handle truth. It overwhelms and thus the breaking of confidences.
Forgive my rambling....just some food for thought.
He says that open confession means intense vulnerability, and we could have those who may abuse that vulnerability, break confidence or use our sin against us. Also, it may create a lot of strain on the fellowship in carrying one another's burdens, along with our own. But maybe this is how it was meant to be. What do you guys think?
Perhaps this would work better in a small fellowship of guys, whereas it would not work in the church as a whole. I can also forsee problems with the clergy openly confessing sins, in that it could lead to doubting their pastoral leadership abilities, and make them overly vulnerable to their congregations.
On Worship...
Meeting as men to worship together as men is not a bad idea. I'd go for that, perhaps more suiting that the worship be a part of our joining together in some fashion (incorporate worship into what we've been doing). Even so, simply in meeting and putting our minds collectively to God is a worship, but that's just me knit-picking.
On Confession...
We face two distinct issues here. The church no doubt needs to corporately confess. Huzzah for liturgy. And I believe that we can meet as men together and do this, but as a single corpus. Yes, I am suggesting something liturgical. Corporate confession is a means of understanding our shared nature/meaning, our shared beginning, our shared salvation, etc.
On the issue of confession of sins, as to a priest, I do not doubt that we are all close enough (if that is the requirement) to personally confess publically to this small community. However, I do not believe that we should institue personal confession into our corporate time together. It would be a great mis-step, though if one felt so moved I would certainly not oppose him.
Finally, so far as within the confines of our meeting:
corporate confession- yes
personal confession- no
Summation...
Our time together is set aside, separate than the other times we meet. We should strive to keep it that way, but let's not clutter it in our attempts to "do it right."
I am freatful for all of your thoughts! Maybe it is something better done in small groups, or even one on one.
My personal thoughts on confession have morphed lately, and I am exploring the idea of at least small groups of confession.
I like the use of liturgies, corporate confession, but could we do something more? If we truly, truly, believe the gospel we would see that our deepest sin has been exposed, God knows us deeply, and loves us all the more passionately. So many times we are afraid of being exposed, being found out, but isn't this what we need. And even more when we are found out, shouldn't we be met by all the many Christ's that surround us, who could embrace us and remind us that we are not our sin!
So many times when we try to do something like this, we miss the point, this is why confedentiality is broken. We all have sins, usually our deepest wounds, are the ones we need healed the most, and we fear that because we do not want to be exposed. So we confess trifles, all the small stuff, just enough to were people feel like we are confiding, and not to much to were they think we are dispicable.
What if we entered into the relationship as bearers of Christ! Ready to meet brothers in thier need and bring the healing that only Christ can bring. would we see men and women living out their true identity?
This is really long, so I apologize. And I to am uncertian if this is the way to go, I simply believe I fail to understand confession, and could daily use informed and reminded! maybe we do need our sins exposed so that we are free to live as we truly are!
Idea's have been cleared some it seems. Jamis and I were talking, it is difficult to take the theorhetcial and turn it practical without it loosing its conviction and true motive...After talking with you guys this weekend and at the Purves thing, I know that you can add some. Let us know what you all have found out or can add to our current discussion if you would.
-Mike-
We've talked a lot about Bonhoeffer and in other posts, some have briefly mentioned, "Life Together." It's an amazing book that explores community from a biblical perspective. Maybe we should read through it together. I think most of us have read it. What are your thoughts on what Bonhoeffer has to say? How does he portray community, biblically, especially within regards to confession, honesty, transparency, etc.? What is the role of COMMUNITY versus ACCOUNTABILITY?
I just wanted to mention this.
I read the last chapter of "Life Together" by Bonhoeffer and pretty much loved every minute of it. He talks about confession, which is obviously a center to what we're wanting to purpose ourselves around. However, in regards to fellowship, which I hope we're about, Bonhoeffer had a lot to contribute.
He didn't really advocate corporate confession. Now I'm sure reciting a prayer of confession is good, but as for confessing personal sins to a congregation, or fellowship, he definately wasn't an avid supporter.
Bonhoeffer recommend that we confess to an individual brother. A brother is anyone who lives under the cross that Jesus tells us to pick up and carry. In other words, it's another brother in Christ. Theoretically, we should be able to go up to ANY brother in Christ and confess with no problem, unfortunatley, that's not always the case. Problems aside, he suggested that we confess to ONLY one brother... and to not use the same person to be the one confessed to everytime. Reason being, it would avoid making confession a routine, in turn, aiding more in a repentence from the sins we're confessing. I can add more to that sometime if you would like.
Bonhoeffer says that one of the uniting factors of a fellowship, aside from all members being united under Christ, is that we're united in our sinfulness. Through confessing to a "random" brother in the fellowship makes all accountable and sharing in the burdens of each other. We're all made aware of each others sin. And it makes not just an individual responsible for accountability, but the community as well when it comes to sins of one of the members. Make sense?
So what is the purpose of the fellowship? Well, that's the first several chapters of the book...
What do we want the purpose of our fellowship to be like? What kind of community do we want? How can we make it that way? Do you guys like Bonhoeffer's structure?
I like where thigns are going. I would love to sit and talk to a person though! When is a good time we can all meet? Let me know>
-JJ
I was listening to an mp3 of Lauren winner this morning. While she is talking about "Real Sex" (her book) she had some pertinent things to say about community ("... community expects change").
Audio is found here
size: 22.4 MB
type: .mp3
length: 70 minutes
It's worth listening to the whole thing, but the part I mentioned begins at 47:00 and lasts for about 2 minutes. I'll try to cut up the file and post the excerpt later. Well worth the listen.
Thanks Mike, its amazing the crazy things you seem to find.
As for myself, perhaps the most skeptical of the bunch on this topic, I do like Bonhoeffer's structure. It creates the space that people can build a relationship and pour their heart-including vices- into it. That is what I was concerned about, loosing the "heart" of the matter if you will.
I was talking with EJ the other day and wondered aloud, "Perhaps it would be too easy to pigeonhole the community of Christ." What I mean is, perhaps this community that we talk of is, because of our unity in Christ Jesus, continually present. In my own experience, this week...this very blog page has been very healing for me because of you guys. Not to discount the intimacy of face to face fellowship or confession. We will want to be careful to not say, "well...now we are together...now we can experience community." I believe that we already have it established, the work now is, to cultivate it.
I'm typically free on Tuesday nights. Or Wednesdays now. I don't usually do much on Fridays. Or late Monday nights. Even late Saturday nights are open. I really don't have a life.
Oh yeah. This is in response to Justin's question...
Im free most nights in general...I work in the mornings. Otherwise, Dane and I are probably going to start geeking it up with Baldur's II towards the end of the week (like Fri/Sat) so I might be tied up there.
-Mike-
Some musing on community.
Suffering is not solitude, it is not unseen. Suffering is shared. Suffering is noticed. Our suffering is shared with community. Even a Christian who proximately is alone, is joined to community in his suffering, or in the suffering of another. Our suffering is also shared by God, for the suffering of the body of Christ is no doubt the suffering of Christ, also. So, then- does the strange, almost humorous irony exist that in our aloneness, in our suffering of solitude, that community is in fact bolstered, or expressed more fully?
I'm open most days for meeting.
Please hop over to my weblog (click the name)- I have a post that could use your wonderful thoughts and logic.
Mr. Barrett, what a loaded comment! First off, I do not presume to have any answers.
Lately I have suffered, i'll not get into it, but it shook me to the core. During this time, the most amazing people to me were the people that solely listened. They didn't rebuke, or try and explain away the cause and hurt. They instead acknowledged it (I may have just found a large part of minsterial training!) These men, you know who you are, were amazing in their collective "that sucks." It seemed to me that oftentimes, the silence I find in the midst of pain, is broken most poignantly by the silence of my brothers. Their silence is not uncomfortable or ashamed; rather, it is shared silence before the mystery of iniquity for those hurting. God bless you men.
Some of my most amazing times, albeit painful times, of fellowship where I was able to council or be there were the few times that I actually shared in the very pain of the one hurting. It wasn't cognative, it was almost like I was able to experience some of that pain myself, in order to relate and perhaps take some from him. Perhaps in this way does Christ share in our sufferings, not just on a basis of "yeah I was tempted also" but to the very core of our beings. Are we that engrafted with Christ, I hope to believe so.
-Mike-
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